Interview in Bishkek met Emal Muldobaiev, historicus en linguist. Emil Moldobaiev - What language shall I speak, Kyrgyz or Russian?     - Speak Russian, please. Emil Moldobaiev: - Kyrgyz origins are in the south of Siberia and in the north and west of Mongolia. The term «Kyrgyz» comes from ancient Chinese sources dated 201. Other terms used to name the ethnicity are «gian-gun'» and «gee-gun'». The matter is that Chinese sound are different, so they pronounce the words gia-gun, gian-gun', and gia-gu differently. The best Chinese specialists worldwide pronounce the word «Kyrgyz' the way we pronounce it today. Since the third century A. D., the Kyrgyz have became a part of the world history. From the northwest of Mongolia the Kyrgyz moved to Minusinsk Hollow (the Enisey river) and the South Siberia being forced bythe Gunns. There, they blended with an ethnicity called Din-Len. The Din-Len people had blue eyes, were tall and looked like European. Later, the Gunns also took part in this process of blending. Consequently, these were the three ethnic components of the Enisey Kyrgyz. The time of the first through the fifth centuries has not been studied very well as academician Bartold mentioned. However, since the sixth century, the Kyrgyz again appear on the historical arena. By hat time, they managed to found their own state and literature. The first embassy was sent to China.Since that time the Enisey Kyrgyz were a match for the Uigur and other peoples. The Uigurs dominated the Central Asia from 745 to 840 which is 95 years. However, in 840, the Kyrgyz ceased this domination by besieging their capital cities and burning the army of more than one hundred thousand people. In Mongolia, you can still find ruins of Beitin, the ancient capital of the Uigur. As a result, the Kyrgyz became the only people dominating the Central Asia. This domination was rather short in time due to other people who came to the Central Asia after the Uigur. The ethnicity was named «Kidani» or «Kara-Kytai». That was the reason for the Kyrgyz' migration from the territory of the Central Asia. The Kyrgyz are said to be the ancestors of all peoples of the South Siberia. I have been there and established some contacts which allow me to say that there is lot of common things between the peoples no matter how long the separation lasted. There, the modern Kyrgyz originated in XV-XVI centuries. The same is to the language which originated on the territory of Tian-Shan, which is this very territory.You may ask what Manas has to do with what I am talking about. The matter is that I have been searching Manas' traces. In the South Siberia, I could find only a few of them but the matter is that the epos completely formed on the Central Asian territory. Personally, I connect this fact with the Kara Kytai aggression. Some scientists say that was the time of the Kyrgyz' domination that is the ninth century. I think vise versa. When a man walks, he cannot think of anything bad, I mean, then the Kyrgyz were separated by the Kara Kytai and could not get together again they started composing the epos. To prove this, let's recall the term `Kara Kytai» which is the central one in the epos. The epos points out the Kalmaks, Kytai, Kara Kalmak, however, I believe, the Kara Kytai were the major enemy force. The epos is simply an artistic creature, so the same enemy may be called differently from time to time. Still, I think, the Kara Kytai are to be given the most attention to. Generally speaking, this is the connection of the Kyrgyz history and Manas epos I can see.
- Do you think Manas really existed in the history? E.M:     - No, I do not think he did. Manas is an epic character, a collective image. Nobody can give a clear answer why Manas has become the center of the epos. Probably, different leaders were meant. They tried to gather the Kyrgyz when the Enisey Kyrgyz' state had been destroyed in 1293. Probably, those leaders were cores for lots of legends. The epos covers different periods of the history and contains a lot of ethnic realities such as economy, clothing, hostilities, medicine, etc. So, I make a conclusion, that the epos, though being rather far from us in time, is not a fiction but is a road the Kyrgyz covered. However, the road is shown artistically. It has been changed through the centuries being inherited orally, not in writing. People could add a lot to the epos while telling it, so we have it disfigured nowa days. Let's recall Chohan Valikhanov saying: «The Manas epos is an encyclopedia of the Kyrgyz people.» Artistically, the epos collected historical facts which a regular reader can hardly find, even if the reader is Kyrgyz, super Kyrgyz. The word «Manas» is differently understood in different ways and different religions. Most probably, it came from the Monihey, a branch of the Buddhist religion that existed in the middle ages. Professor Bernshtam, for instance, believes that one of the Himalayan range was called Manisa in the past, and this mane later transformed into Manas. However, this is just another opinion.Other scientists treat the name as an anatomic part of the body which stands for intellect in Sanscrit. Finally, a researcher named Belek Soltonov treats the name as a transformation of the terms «mee-nus», «men-oguz», «ia-oguz»,and «meno guz».Like I said, there are many different opinions on the origins of the name, so the problem has not been resolved yet. The situation is similar to the one with the term «Kyrgyz». According to different scientists, the term may stand for «forty girls», «red valley», «forty choro». Besides, in Yakut «kyrgyz» means «martial» or «brave». So, these are the two terms that have not been completely understood yet though it sound paradoxically.     - Could you give us an example of the use of medicines? E.M.     - The epos contains a lot of information on it. There are many curative plants mentioned in the epos. It describes how ancient doctors treated wounds, applied straps and splints on broken bonds. Generally, medicine is closely connected with different battles in the epos.However, there is a certain share of fiction in the epos as far as medicineis concerned. For example, it describes a warrior who attached his arm torn off and continued to fight. Manas himself was ill with so-called ajina. When found out the meaning of the word, it turned out to be a nervous illness know by the Kyrgyz. Other real things described in the epos are use of mumie and a few narcotic medicines, surgeries, and varios surgical instruments like «ilmek» (hook), «ashtar» (knife), etc, names of illness and methods of treatment. I would like to point out a very interesting kind of food mentioned in the epos. It was called «kulazyk» and prepared in a very complicated way. It was fried, boiled, than dried and pounded, so finally it looked like a powder. One small sack of such food was enough for a warrior and his horse. The sack was sewed into a narrow cover on the saddle. A hollow of such food would save the horse from starvation. To cause vomit, the Kyrgyz used vodka. When I found the word «oh» in the text, I thought it meant «bullet». Later, when I was in Mongolia, I found out the right meaning of the word. «Oh» means vodka in Mongolian.         -Can you compair the Manas with other epics? E.M.    -Generally, Kyrgyz epic poems are subdivided into two groups: 1. Great and 2. Short epic poems. Manas is from the first group. All the others are short epic poems. There are approximately twenty epic poems that each can fit into one book. In each of them, there is a character who fights for people. Some of them are Kurmanbek, Janysh Baiysh, and others. All of the characters fought for independence of their people. Some of them wrongly fought for some feudal foundations. The matter is that Manas exceeds all the other epic poems due to its volume. The epos contains a lot of folklore genres such as lamentation, proverbs, sayings, sharp expressions, etc. which Manas absorbed. This is the phenomena that the researchers cannot unriddle. Generally, the matter is not in the epos itself, there are many epic stories.        - What are the main enemies of Manas and why? E.M.     - I think, the Kara Chinese are among his main enemies. This can easily and logically be explained from the historic and ethnographic point of view. Moreover, I believe the epos originate in the times when the Enisey Kyrgyz were suppressed by the Chinese or the Kara Chinese aggression.     - Do you think Manas is a composition of people suffering from Chingizkhan? E.M.     -No, I do not think so. Chingizkhan emerged much later than the epos. Though the Kyrgyz were the first suffered from Chingizkhan and his son Juchi when he came in 1207, they had suffered much more from the Chinese before.However, the Mongolian aggression could exert a considerable influence on the epos. There many purely Mongolian words and phrases in it. I found more than twenty different names of the Mongolian in the epos. I cannot say for sure, but I think each of the Turkish and Mongolian peoples could have their own short epic story. These stories could be similar to each other and have alike motives. Therefore, Manas could be composed by accumulating all these short stories. -President Askar Akaev distilled seven commandments out of the epic... E.M.   - They all have to do with humanism like being human, kind, etc. Being a president, he tries to find as many positive things as he can to work out the ideology for the present time. He finds the best things in Manas to apply them to the modern culture, politics, and economy.and I think they are all a little artificial. I do not share them and never learned them by heart. To me, they seem to be out of the context. I think we must not pull separate morals out of the text and numerate them. People like them and understand of cause since they at least make sense. However, you are not going to find them ready in the text, they were just taken out of the context and put together.         - How would you apprise the epos from the moral standpoint? E.M. - Well, I value the epos very mush. I used to give a lot of   lectures on Manas in the past. In the Knowledge Society we worked out a course of lectures which I gave to farmers of many state and collective farms, to intellectuals, and students. I still lecture at the National University. So, in that time, if you told ordinary people there had been no such man as Manas they would be offended. The epos is a sort of protective sphere for the Kyrgyz. People even shaman with the characters of the epos. When they are ill, they call heroes of Manas for help. There is no Kyrgyz who would not know about Manas. However, the traditional perception of the epos is gradually dying in the present time due to computers, television, etc. I found a lot of useful thing in the epos which I once used in my scientific report as to rehabilitation of the political system. Most of the statesmen of the present ought to learn from the positive characters of the epos such as Bakai, Koshoi, and others who call for fairness. Once Manas wanted to punish Joloi when he behaved impudently at the commemoration for Koketey. Bakai and Koshoi stopped him. Always restrain hot temper. They must adopt these positive thing in the places, say, nations are at enmity to each other. They should refer to such epic traditions to solve problems.     - But are these moral values? E.M. - You can learn a lot from the epos as far as moral aspects such as honesty of the positive characters and their clean relationships are concerned. Let me give you an example of moral behavior described in the epos. According to the custom, Kanykey had to step over Manas when he died. Only morally well-bred people were let to do so in the past. These are a few little examples of morality which are to be followed by the present youth. Manas always followed his advisers' instruction as they were older and he had to respect them. Those were his friends who always saved him since he treated them very well. These are the values that modern people lack. Besides, I would point such values as honesty, loyalty and self-dedication to people, love, etc.
- Can you tell us something about the religious background of the epos? E.M. - The religious background is very complicated in Manas. In fact, I study religion itself by studying Manas. The main conclusion I have made so far is that the Kyrgyz experienced a lot of different religions including Judaism. There are facts in the epos showing the Kyrgyz professed the Nesterian doctrine Christian religion. Actually, Manas is the only source pointing out this fact. Take this example: the old man Koktoi instructs his only son Bokmurun at the his own commemoration Andan arsy barsatc parsa bar,Andan arsy kalcha bar, Andan apsy tarsa bar.(«Andan arsy barsatc means «I you go further) If you go further, you will meet the Pers, if you go further, you will meet the Tajik, if you go further, you will meet the Nesterian. Here, «kalcha» means «the Tajik», «tarsa» means «the Pers». For a long time I could not find out what «tarsa» meant, and was so happy to find it out finally. «Tarsa» means «the Christian or Nesterian doctrine» or just the Nesterian. The Turkish Mongolian were engaged into Nesterian religion in the middle ages. Besides, the Kyrgyz profess Totemism, the cult of nature and ancestors. The most common expression of the cult of ancestors is burying of bodies left on the battlefield. Moreover, the bodies should always be buried on the patrimonial cemetery. Another example is calling Manas a lion, a tiger, or an eagle. This may mean that the Kyrgyz worshipped these animals in the past. Shamanism is also well described in the epos. For example, people called a shaman when Manas fell ill. He was ill with a so-called «ajina», a nervous illness, and it was a shaman how restored him to health. Furthermore terminology of the epos provides a lot of evidences of Buddhism existence among the Kyrgyz, «but-butkhana», «kut-lai-la-ma», «kuroo» which is a Buddhist monastery, etc. If we leave text of the epos for a while and try to find something in the history of the Kyrgyz, we will recall a small community of the Kyrgyz living in China who still profess a religion named Lomaism. Finally, the epos has a lot to do with Islam. Sagymbai Orozbakov, the greatest teller of the twentieth century was considerably affected by Islam. In fact, the communist regime did not welcome such manifestation of Islam. Telling the epos, Sagynbai used such words as «kudai», argued that Manas was born right after Muhammad, and than, after 180 days, Chingyz Khan was born. On the other hand, he sometimes wedged in some purely bookish information. It could be that researchers ordered something to be sung, and he sang to the order. In other words, the Pan Islamism had certain influence upon him.     - How did the Soviet times affect the epos and manaschis? E.M. - Russian influence was the greatest. I can see the Kyrgyz speaking only Russian, young people speak Russian to each other. When I try to make my children learn Manas, they laugh. People do not value the epos that much any more. On the other hand, the epos must be inherited somehow, it must not die. In this respect, the regime exerted a considerable influence on the epos. If we lived traditionally, as the Kyrgyz had used to, before the Soviet time, the situation would be quite different. I am not a magician to foresee what will happen to the Kyrgyz in the future. All I can say is that the present system will exert a similar influence by destroying the national traditions. We have not retained Chong manaschis, and I doubt they will ever emerge in the future. However, it should be noted that full versions of Manas were written down during the Soviet period.     - What are the functions of manaschis in the society? E.M. - Manaschis are greatly respected by people. It is always a pleasure for people to listen to a manaschi, an esthetic pleasure. The Kyrgyz enjoy it just like other people enjoy going to cinema or theater, like the American enjoy playing basketball, or like the Dutch enjoy playing football. I would use this comparison.When a teller told the epos, no one would make any noise, everybody would sit quiet and listen. Unfortunately, there are no great tellers like Saiakbai nowadays any more. Present manaschis are not that good.     - What is the difference between the present and the past manaschis? E.M. - In the past, a young man wishing to become a manaschi would do it like this: he would come to an old and recognized manaschi and put his desire into words (one of the most important conditions was to see special dreams prior to coming to such manaschi). He would than work for the manaschi, look after his horse, etc. for free. He would follow the manaschi everywhere to listen the epos together with other people and learn from him. This could last for many months. In this way, the epos was inherited from generation to generation. The situation is different nowadays thanks to computers, radio, television, etc. which make the traditional way of transmission fade. Time has changed, so I think there will be no such great tellers in the future. Future manaschis will be pure learners while in the past talented manaschis could catch the core of the epos and than improvise developing their own versions.     - Can you recall the names of those Chong (great) manaschis? E.M. - I remember the names of Keldibek, Naimanbay, Balyk who lived at the end of the XVIII century. Such manaschis as Sagynbai Orozbakov, Saiakbai Karalaiev lived in the XX century. There are other names like Choiuke were well-known in the XIX century. People still remember these names and are proud of them. Chong manaschis are those tellers who keep the whole Manas in their minds. Some of them could even remember the whole trilogy, Manas, Semetey, Seitek. Lower rank manaschis are those who tell just a few episodes of the epos or a part of it and are called Kichine manaschis.     - Are there still Chong manaschis? E.M. - Personally, I would not call the contemporary manaschis Chong. Qaba Atabekov is a good manaschi but he is old. The other Manaschi are professional actors. For example Urkan Mambetaliev. He is working at the Philharmonic Theater. Researchers do not have any general opinion on his version. Most of them argue he is just learning the epos part by part. However, I do not think he can learn the whole epos. Moreover, he will never have a chance to tell all he knows, for he is always given no more than 30 minutes to sing. Like I said, there is no Chong manaschis nowadays, and I doubt they will ever emerge in the future.